Suggestions for the organizers?

Submitted by Jim Gregory on Wed, 2007-03-21 17:18.

2008 Pacific Cup Forum

For those that have done the race before, is there anything that we should change?? For those who have not done the race, what can we do to convince you to join us in 2008???

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Yacht-control

Submitted by Randy on Mon, 2008-04-28 06:36.

I have tried to contact the PCYC organizers because my company is interested in Sponsorship with our www.yacht-control.com sat tracking and emergency alert product. We participate in regatas which can be seen at www.regatacontrol.com . Our handheld Sat. transponders are the best for this type of regata (www.findmespot.com) in addition all web viewers on the Pacific Cup website can follow the race in real time by sat. tracking.
Urge your organizers to get in touch with us!!!
EMMI Network, www.emminet.com www.yacht-control.com
rkasir@emminet.com

DH Start Together or Separate

Submitted by NBossett on Thu, 2008-01-03 17:51.

(response to Jim G who poked those of us who haven't responded) We would prefer to start all of the DH's on the same day. The real competition is in division, even if the spread is a bit wide on the ratings. We should all have identical wind, current, etc. to at least begin on an even footing. Further, we should start as early as possible so that everyone can make the awards. Nathan Bossett, for Elise (E27)

Double handers starting with crewed yachts

Submitted by pdisario on Fri, 2007-12-21 07:26.

It might be fun to be with the crewed boats, although our sail handling will be slower--especially in squalls. We will fall behind as a result. I assume we will be scored as separate division(s) Paul Disario Plus Sixteen

SSB requirement

Submitted by cdoubek on Thu, 2007-12-20 18:52.

I would think the SSB requirement is somewhat antiquated at this point. I am in favor of this as an option for competitors but not mandatory. With the cost, weight, complexity, power consumption and availability, I think the Iridium phone, even as a requirement, would be a better option. Check out; http://www.roadpost.com/Iridium-Satellite-Phone-Rentals-P176C65.aspx

SSB Requirement

Submitted by joshuagrass on Sun, 2008-01-27 23:25.

I also think the SSB requirement is a little antiquated with the increasing reliability and availability of sat phones. Also, it might be easier for the race committee to keep track of the fleet with position transponders. See the announcement below from the Chicago Yacht Club: Friday - Janaury 25 2008 - 1015 PST - Chicago Yacht Club announced that it will require all participants in the 2008 Chicago Yacht Club Race to Mackinac to carry a position transponder. The Chicago Yacht Club Race to Mackinac presented by Lands' End will start off Chicago's lakefront on July 19, 2008. 2008 marks the 100th running of 'the Mac,' the world's longest annual freshwater sailing distance race. Chicago Yacht Club has long been a pioneer in tracking sailboat races. This year, we will take the next step in that effort by placing position transponders on all entered boats. With all boats being tracked, the Mac will become a spectator sport. Anyone, whether they are located in Chicago, Mackinac Island, or on the other side of the world, will be able to track the hourly progress of any of over 400 boats, Greg Miarecki, chair of the 2008 Mackinac Committee remarked. We are very much looking forward to bringing the excitement of the Race to millions of people around the world. Chicago Yacht Club has selected iBoattrack as its vendor for race tracking services. iBoattrack has handled a number of large regattas in the past, including the 100th anniversary of the Newport-Bermuda Race in 2006. iBoattrack is pleased to be providing our service to the Chicago Yacht Club for the tracking and mapping of all the boats in the 100th Race to Mackinac. To our knowledge, this will be the largest offshore yacht race ever tracked and are proud to be supporting an event of this caliber,� Jim Feeney, president of Horizon Marine, Inc., remarked. Horizon Marine is the owner and operator of the iBoattrack system.

Awards Banquet

Submitted by kyrnos on Fri, 2007-06-01 07:00.

I have a suggestion of changing the Awards Banquet to a more inclusive function. KYC does a great job offering dinners for racers and supporters throughout the finishing week. By the end of the week, as a competitor, you are "dinnered out". Secondly, with the increasing number of yachts entering, multiplied by family and supporters, the facility cannot accommodate the number of tables necessary, unless of course, KYC opens up the back wall and places tables in the parking lot. The constraints are obvious given the already created an "A" group (under the tent), and a "B" group (inside the building) fragmenting the fleet. For those reasons, I suggest instead of sit down dinner, the Awards Banquet be turned into a cocktail party, with a tableless BBQ on the side, a less formal sitdown affair where everyone can be included in the tent and the Awards can move along faster, so we can get to the dancing!

Significant Awards and a Class A Master of Ceremony's

Submitted by Giant_Slayer on Mon, 2007-06-11 14:00.

Promised an award of significance, i was given a 6 foot piece of 1/2 chain and a steel bucket. It was not even Stainless. Not sure what a guy with a SC27 is going to do with a 80LB 6 foot piece of 1/2 chain? Also, the awards committed did nothing to present something interesting about the racers or boat. It was a love fest of old friends on stage. They did not even give the names of the double handers or boat skippers. We want Chuck Hawley back, that guy could host a class "A" entertaining act.

Working on it

Submitted by Administrator on Thu, 2007-06-14 06:55.

West Marine has traditionally supplied the MC for the event. As they were going through a transition, there were some changes from prior years. A general slowdown in the marine industry contributed to a sparse set of freebies. I can tell you that Scott, who parachuted in the day before, worked very hard with the materials you folks filled out to put on a good show. Under the circumstances, I think he did a good job, but you are right, he's no Chuck Hawley. Nobody is! We'll ask Chuck again. We have additional commitments for free stuff. The cocktail party idea above is very intriguing!

Single Side Band Radios

Submitted by nickbarran on Mon, 2007-05-07 06:58.

I would like to make a strong motion that position reports and other check-ins may be made by sat phone and/or eMail as an alternative to SSB. Furthermore, if a competitor has an Iridium phone with an active account that competitor should not be required to carry SSB as well. The problem is that USCG Hawaii has very poor SSB reception and the distance to Pt. Reyes for the last 1000 miles of the race or the first part of the return makes it questionable as to whether they will hear a transmission or not. Walt will attest to the following: • In 2003 when we had rudder problems on a return from Hawaii, he was the only reliable contact for communications. USCG Honolulu could hear nothing, and Pt. Reyes only managed to hear us once. We were not asking for help, just giving a report that we had lost our rudder and would be returning to Honolulu with difficulty. • In 2006, when we were rammed by a sperm whale and sank 450 miles north of Oahu, our Mayday calls on SSB were unheard and therefore unanswered, but a phone call to Walt allowed us immediate contact with USCG Honolulu to confirm the immediate activation of rescue services and confirmation of the EPIRB alarm and position. • Finally, we could transfer the Iridium phone to the life raft and still maintain communications, something that is impossible with an SSB. As a licensed Ham radio operator with eight years as Chairman, LA County Red Cross Communications, after many Hawaii races and returns together with a worst possible scenario accident, it is my conclusion that SSB radios bring virtually no additional benefit to a vessel already equipped with an Iridium phone. They consume much more power than a phone, are unreliable and degrade and corrode faster than almost any one piece of equipment aboard. They are expensive and heavy, too. So, Race Committee, please encourage (but not require) the use of Iridium phones by allowing them to replace SSB units. As a corollary, please provide the infrastructure to accept position and check-in reports by eMail or phone-in together with the subsequent distribution of class and overall daily results by eMails back to race boats. The time really has come for this change. Nick Barran XL

Keep the SSB requirement

Submitted by RHinden on Thu, 2007-06-14 20:24.

I think we should keep the SSB requirement. Besides the safety advantage of radio due to its broadcast nature, a big part of the previous Pacific Cup we did (2004) was the morning check in and "family hour" in the afternoon. In the morning it was great to hear everyone checkin and track their positions. The family hour chat was, well what can I say, interesting. Overall, the use of radio created a nice sense that we weren't the only boat in the middle of the Pacific. I even piped the radio output to the speakers in the cockpit for the crew on deck. We did carry an Iridum phone for emergencies, but our main communication link was the SSB. We used it for the Pacific Cup checkins and family hour, Sailmail email, and fax reception. Bob Acacia

Keep SSB Requirement

Submitted by Sailingus on Thu, 2007-06-14 22:21.

I’ve been thinking about this proposal for weeks now and my first reaction was “cool, that’s one less hassle.” However after giving it considerable thought I find that I disagree with changing this requirement. From the above post it appears that ssb worked, though not as well as XL would have liked. It does not mean it doesn’t work. It only means it didn’t work as well for them as they would have liked. I am glad to hear everything did go well for them in the given the situation. I’m also a licensed ham radio operator and would argue that radio communication is very reliable and relatively inexpensive for its intended use. I certainly agree that ssb consumes much more power than a sat phone. I personally have not had any reliability problems for many years with mine. I also did a temporary ssb installation on Plus-Sixteen for the ’06 race and we had no reliability issues there either. Being subjected to the marine environment is not mutually exclusive to an ssb, sat phones are electronics which will degrade also and I can't see that the weight of an ssb would win or loose this race for someone. Commercials, (or t-boats if that’s what the poster is referring too) do have marine ssb capability, though they may not use it the same way we do. They also have much larger array of far more expensive electronics which do a whole lot more to supplement and replace the need for marine ssb but they still have it. To say that commercials don’t use it so we don’t need to is like saying the america’s cup pro’s don’t use safety lines on deck we shouldn’t have to either. As for fishing boats, I won’t even go there. It took legislation to get them to even use 406 EPIRBs ☺ USCG Hawaii has an excellent ability to “hear” and respond to ssb radio. Propagation should be considered as to whether your signal will be better heard to the east or west. This is not a USCG Hawaii problem they do an exceptional job, I have 1st hand experience to say so. XL should be applauded for their foresight when they decided to carry a sat phone but that does not mean sat phones should be the means of race communications. I like that radio skills are a part of the race, hearing each of the racers radio call-ins were also a significant moral booster for us on Plus-Sixteen it kept us "connected" to the fleet, upped the "fun factor" and of course Michael was pretty entertaining. Removing this requirement may even discourage folks from fully considering the merits of ssb and carrying multiple communications options other than just meeting the minimum requirements. We had the required ssb on Plus-Sixteen and had a sat phone also. This is after all a significant passage and an ssb would be on any well-prepared vessel. The perceived “expensive” is no more than a mid-range gps system. I can’t imagine it would truly keep anyone out of the race with a full year to get one if they really want to go. I just looked up on Ebay and saw an M-700 for $500! The carrying of sat phones is a great idea and should be encouraged in other ways or even require them in addition to ssb but I do not agree with allowing them to replace the SSB requirement. My 2 cents, I'm looking forward to a great race for '08. Thanks for all the work. Fair Winds and Warm Anchorages! Cheers, AJ.

Excellent suggestion

Submitted by spwashburn on Mon, 2007-06-11 16:17.

The Commercials who make a living on the sea do not even use SSB anymore. Time for the SSB requirement to go the way of the sextant. Steve Washburn

Another vote for sat phone

Submitted by Alternate Reality on Mon, 2007-06-04 19:19.

I agree with the idea of the sat phone option. Eliminate the expense of the SSB when there is an easier and as or more effective alternative. No mods or extra wiring in a small boat. It would be very helpful. Thanks for bringing up the issue Nick. Darrel Jensen

Agree with the Sat Phone usage

Submitted by sk_dickinson on Tue, 2007-05-15 19:03.

I've got one and plan on having on board for the race. My plan is have it for realiable communications for emergency. I also like the idea of reporting positions, etc via the phone. We'd be foreced to buy and install SSB. An expense I'd like to avoid. I also like the email concept. A lot easier to send/receive... Scott Dickinson

Agree with Sat Phone option

Submitted by Gary Troxel on Thu, 2007-05-10 10:20.

I agree with Nick's recommendations and would like to have that option. In the spirit of enticing more participants, reducing the cost of participating and simplifying the process this makes a lot of sense… am I missing something? Gary Troxel Tiki Blue-Beneteau 423

Disagree with Sat Phone Option

Submitted by Giant_Slayer on Mon, 2007-06-11 13:37.

SSB is part of the challenge and skill. SSB allows for multi-party communication during emergency. Bring whatever safety gear you want to or think you need for your boat and crew. We have raced twice and have had good communication except the 100 mile check in in the afternoon. Does that mean that you will now be able to download weather and other information on the sat-phone? Does a public service even exist? Is cost really the issue? Giant Slayer

FAQ

Submitted by Myers on Thu, 2007-04-19 21:59.

There ought to be a FAQ on the site, and to make it really useful the race officers should try to post every good question and the answer, no matter the source (mail, email, phone, conversation, organizing committee discussion, etc.)

Time Limit Wording

Submitted by sleddog on Thu, 2007-04-12 08:09.

After 26 boats ran up against the pressure of the 17 day time limit in 2000, PacCup has wisely modified the Time Limit Rule SI 4.6 so that any competitor reaching Kaneohe after the time limit can take its own time and will still be recorded as "finished." However, the wording is awkward as the results will show "FNS," or "Finished Not Scored." We agree that boats finishing after the time limit should not be trophy eligible. Nor should the finish committee have to remain on station after the time limit. But the awkward terminology of "FNS" and "Finished Not Scored," terms not found in the RRS, taints in uncertainty the record of what might have been a memorable passage. We suggest the ambiguity of "FNS" and "Finished Not Scored" be modified or removed from the SI's and Final Results so as to make the historical record of one's Pacific Cup Race more user friendly. If for whatever reason we arrive at Kaneohe after the time limit (broken mast, rudder, etc.), we should be scored in the record as "Finished." ~sleddog

White Flares

Submitted by sleddog on Mon, 2007-03-26 08:13.

I hope Pac Cup would consider 1) eliminating, or 2) making optional the white flare requirement. With rechargeable, battery operated, 10 million candle power spot lights available for less than $100, and 1 million candle power battery powered spot lights costing less than one hand flare, the requirement to carry 4 white flares is outdated and risky. Last spring, a sailing instructor was maimed by a white hand flare that went through his body. How many PacCuppers know what a white flare is for, except to satisfy the safety inspector? Unlike red flares, white flares are not specifically mentioned in COLREGS as a signal to attract attention. But a "searchlight" "aimed in the direction of danger" is prescribed (COLREGS Rule 36. ) Also, when two vessels are approaching each other, a light signaling five short and rapid flashes indicates doubt whether sufficient action is being taken to avoid collision. (COLREGS Rule 34) Personally, I have never heard of a white hand flare being used to ward off shipping. The last act a Pac Cup crew wants to be doing before being run down is trying to set off a potentially hazardous incendiary hand flare. Better to aim a flare gun or aerial flare at the bridge of an oncoming ship to wake up the watchstander. White flares have been around since the time of Nelson, Aubrey, and Trafalgar. They were used in Civil War times, most famously in the sinking of the ironclad Union ship U.S.S.MONITOR. More recently, hand flares are used by unruly fans as crowd inciters in European football and basketball. Classified as a hazardous material, the active ingredients of white hand flares are black powder and magnesium. They emit NOx, a toxic byproduct. For obvious reasons, instructions are to hold the hand flare downwind. The best white hand flares available are 15,000 candle power and burn for about a minute. Burning magnesium on flesh, or blowing down the hatch, could put a damper on your Pac Cup. Breathing hand flare smoke may make the celebratory mai tai unnecessary. I suggest making optional the white flares, and making mandatory a minimum 1 million candlepower spotlight...cheaper, safer, more effective. ~sleddog

Uses for white flares

Submitted by Administrator on Fri, 2007-04-06 06:57.

Well, white flares are good for practice, and for heating up coffee in a REAL big hurry. And I suppose they'd be good for avoiding collision, but you make an excellent point.

White Flares

Submitted by Jim Gregory on Tue, 2007-04-03 09:38.

Interesting suggestion. Will follow up and look into it more prior to publishing the safety requirements for 2008. In 2006, the requirement for white flares was removed due to the safety issue that you refer to.

White Flares

Submitted by sleddog on Fri, 2007-06-15 07:57.

As per the above suggestion to eliminate the dangerous, cost ineffective, and COLREGS contradicting requirement to carry White Hand Flares in Pac Cup, the USSA Safety at Sea Committee has drafted a proposed revision to the Special Regs to eliminate White Hand Flare requirement in future races. This proposed revision will be presented to the ISAF at the next international meeting. These committees move at a glacier pace, and meanwhile I again suggest to Pac Cup to remove all requirements for White Hand Flares. ~sleddog

When will White Flare requirement be decided?

Submitted by RHinden on Tue, 2008-04-08 07:00.

My current White flares have expired. It would be very nice if it was decided before the West Marine 20% off cards expired on April 30. Thanks! Bob / Acacia

Post Race Inspection in Hawaii

Submitted by pdisario on Sun, 2007-03-25 19:04.

Inspect for things that matter. Looking for a light on the throw sling was a bit over the top. Filing a protest over it was silly. Inpect for water, flares, etc. On a more positive note, I loved the race and am planning to do it again

Double Handers Start Date

Submitted by sleddog on Sun, 2007-03-25 15:27.

Double-Handers race all sizes and speeds of boats. Instead of starting the DH class all together, they should be split up and started the day of the week when their similar rated, fully crewed, competitors start. This would prevent inequities of the past, as in 1998 when a fast, 60 foot, DH entrant started Tuesday with the 30 footers. And in 2004 when the slowest rated boat, racing DH, was forced to start Tuesday, a day behind her sistership and similar rated boats, and missed the welcoming parties. It is a nice thought that the Double-Handers would want to compete together and start together as a class. In reality, Double-Handers are competing primarily against similar rated boats, and for the overall prize. -sleddog (4 time PacCup Double-Hander)

Double Hander Start

Submitted by Giant_Slayer on Mon, 2007-06-11 13:45.

In 2006 we raced against the Contessa, which was about 2 times as long and 10 times as heavy. We started at the same time and sailed in different weather. All other boats (not Double-Handers) sailed with like speed boats in the same weather. No one asked me if I wanted to start at the same time as a monster computer controlled gyro autopilot driven, dvd watching, ice creame eating, every electronic gadget available in west marine cateloge sailboat. I say, start the double handers according to the rating like everyone else. It looks to be a good turn out of the 24-27 footers this next year. David and Debra Giant Slayer

Double Handers Start Date

Submitted by Jim Gregory on Tue, 2007-04-03 09:44.

This topic comes up before every race. The input that we have gotten back in the past has always been along the lines that the double handers really do establish a "bond" between themselves as they prepare for the race, and that they PREFER to start together. Now I guess there are some feel the other way. Humm...we'll need to talk with others planning to do the race in 2008 and see which option works best. A 4 time double hander?? Wow! Will you be back for 2008??

Double Handers Start Date

Submitted by sleddog on Fri, 2007-06-15 08:12.

As stated, we have DH PacCup 4 times, and at no time were we asked if we (DHanders) PREFERRED to start all together...we most certainly did not, and I expressed my view on this subject both verbally and in writing to the PacCup Commodores of the past, months in advance of the start of the Races. We were told it would have to be decided by the full Pac Cup Board. That decision always came at the last minute, and we were told they "were leaving it as is...DHanders start together" We have never experienced DHanders doing much "bonding" before the Race. It was always after the Race...But it has been difficult to even get our own DH table at the Awards Dinner, something else I recommend: A DH TABLE at the AWARD'S BANQUET. ~sleddog

Double Handers Start Date - Why it is the way it is

Submitted by quancij on Mon, 2007-06-25 11:13.

The current practice of starting all double handers on the same day is in response to feedback from double handers back when we used to start double handers spread across the week - when each double handed entry started with the crewed division with ratings similar to theirs. It is clear the staggered start results in some days starters being signficantly favered over another days starters. As long as a complete division starts on the same day, the skew due too the different start days only effects the overall race winner and has little effect within a division. As noted, the size and speed spread difference among double handers is much larger then the crewed divisions. Today a double hander can find themselves late in the race in a disdavantaged part of the course due to weather variance across the course - with faster and slower boats not so disadvantaged. In the old days when double handed starts were spread across the week, double handers could (and did) find themseleves at the beginning of the race - even sitting at the dock not yet started - seriously disadvanatged because of the day to day weather variance at the start. A question... Where is the largest variance in weather conditions across the course? The greatest weather variance is in the first 200 miles of the race - when trying to get away from coastal weather conditions. Many races there is at least one day where the starters make very few miles and spend too much time smelling the Farallone Islands while starters on another day "launch" away from the coast in 25+ knots of wind. Once you are out 100-200 miles you get into the offshore flow where wind speeds typically vary just a few knots. So... It seems fairest to have all double handers on the same patch of ocean that is most variable and that will most often have the largest impact on their passage - which is the first 200 miles - which is why today we have the double handers all start the same day. This also has the side benefit that every one in the double handed division feels they have a chance to do well for at least the first half of the race (if not the whole race). Yes this is a compromise - and love to hear other views and ideas on how to make this less of a compromise. Now if we could get 14+ DH entrants, we could create two divisions of DHs which would definitely help... invite your friends to go DH! PS I have gone DH twice... once with the whole DH division starting the same day and once with DH starts spread across several days. And spent a few races drifting off the Faralones on the first night out(fortunately when I was on fully crewed boats where it was much easier to chew the fat and share the pain with the rest of the crew).

DH Start

Submitted by Giant_Slayer on Wed, 2008-01-02 12:32.

It looks like there will be at least 9 Moore24-SantaCruz27-Express27-Olson29 DH boats, all which have pretty fair ratings relative to each other in 08. There is 1 other "slower" boat with similiar ratings but not in the "light" boat design. In a second division, there COULD be 7 faster double handed boats. Looks like it will be easy for the committee to give everyone what they want with the little guys leaving on Monday, and the bigger DH leaving on another appropriate day. No matter what please start the DH on Monday or even Sunday late afternoon. I only get so much time off and want to spend more time in Hawaii......

It is correct that the

Submitted by sleddog on Sat, 2007-07-07 18:11.

It is correct that the greatest weather variance, day to day, is in the first 200 miles. But I disagree that should be the reason to start all the DHers, regardless of speed or size, on the same day. By this argument, the entire Pac Cup fleet should start on the same day, so that every crew gets to endure the same greatest weather variations on the same day in quest of the Pacific Cup. But that would mean the Finish Committee would run out of Mai Tais waiting for boats finishing over a week's spread. The DHers we've talked with enjoy racing against boats their own speed and size. And if luck is with us, for the overall prize: The Pacific Cup. We really don't care to be starting and racing our 27 footer in the same division as a Vendee 50, SC-52 or Wylie 60 as PCYC would have us do. We care much less that we are part of a DH division. In fact, we'd be perfectly happy doing away with the DH division designation, and just put us doublehanders into the division where we fit rating wise. We don't want to be starting Tuesday when our fully crewed identical sistership starts on Monday.